Cat Rambo ([info]catrambo) wrote,
@ 2008-06-19 09:00:00
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Current mood: contemplative
Entry tags:editorial, fantasy magazine, feminism, gender bias, rachel moss

Gender and Editorial Decisions
The question has come up again, and I thank the people willing to ask it. Because maybe if it keeps getting asked, maybe someday we won't need to anymore.  I've posted some of this before in other discussions of the same phenomenon. It's why I don't buy into the "my editorial picks have nothing to do with gender, they just turn out that way" argument.

Studies have shown that people have a tendency to -unconsciously- evaluate pieces of writing differently depending on whether they think the author is male or female. That's something beyond the overt sexism we often see in the field, and it's something that even the very best of intentions doesn't mitigate.

This is why one needs to either strip names off manuscripts or else be aware of this phenomenon in order to make sure you're not succumbing to it. It's not difficult to perform a spot check every once in a while and look for gender-related patterns and it's awesome to see more and more people being aware that they exist. And isn't it something one wants to know if they're doing it, much as one would prefer that a friend discreetly nudge you and mention that you've got a bit of spinach between your teeth rather than let you keep talking away?

It's also discouraging to see intelligent people unwilling to look at their own biases.  It's not a case of snapping in the "I am now feminist" filter and seeing and being affected by the world in a different way.  It's a need for willingness to examine your perceptions and admit how much one is shaped by our determinedly hegemonic culture. We do not exist outside that culture -- we swim in it all the time.  Look at crazy Rachel Moss and the SASS crap -- that's the dominant culture doing its best to impose itself on something that directly challenges some of its core assumptions.

This ties into an ex's theory
that I've always liked about the necessity of acknowledging and examining your own biases. We called it "Acknowledging Your Inner Shittiness" and it's coming to the realization that you're human, that you have biases, and that like every other human being on the face of the earth, you've done crappy things on occasion for ignoble or petty reasons.  Because unless you're willing to acknowledge that, you're never going to be able to try to move beyond it. Or be able to look at your own actions and see where you need to amend them.  And for writers, how can you understand your characters' flaws if you have none of your own?

I think I've told the story before of the job interview where I asked the interviewee to talk about a time she failed and what she did about it and she replied she couldn't because she'd never failed. If there was a single question that sank her, that would be it.  Because either she was the most self-deluded person I'd met in a while, or she was some sort of freakish alien, and in either case I didn't want to work with her. I'm pretty sure she thinks she has no gender biases too.

In past iterations of this discussion, people have offered a theory of "boy" stories and "girl" stories, with the premise that "boy" stories are more likely to appeal to male editors, who then favor them over "girl" stories. I don't think it's that simple, but I'm going to leave that for another time.

Later edit:
The links I inserted aren't showing up for me, so here they are in case they're not showing up for other people.
The current debate: http://joesherry.blogspot.com/2008/06/one-woman-really.html
Rachel Moss:
http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/what-rachel-moss-did/







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[info]temporus
2008-06-19 06:04 pm UTC (link)
"I think I've told the story before of the job interview where I asked the interviewee to talk about a time she failed and what she did about it and she replied she couldn't because she'd never failed."

Just yesterday, we had an applicant answer a slight variation on that question in the same fashion. I don't know if people are afraid of showing a weakness? Or do they really believe it?

Perhaps the fear of acknowledging the bias is similar to the pysche. A refusal to admit it, because it gives the impression that one is less than one's own self image.

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[info]catrambo
2008-06-20 12:45 am UTC (link)
My impression with the young woman I dealt with was that she firmly believed it.

And yeah, no one wants to think they're biased - I can't think it fits into many people's self-image. I think that's part of Acknowledging One's Inner Shittiness, though.

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[info]doortoriver
2008-06-19 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Out of curiosity, do you have any links regarding what people feel are gender patterns?

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[info]catrambo
2008-06-19 09:00 pm UTC (link)
Here's one good starting point for it: http://www.kith.org/journals/jed/2006/08/12/3627.html The Joe Sherry link I pointed at in the post is talking about the ToC for Eclipse 2 and what he perceives as a gender pattern there.

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[info]doortoriver
2008-06-19 09:03 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I much appreciate the added research.

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[info]david_de_beer
2008-06-19 10:48 pm UTC (link)
there was a pretty in-depth article at Strange Horizons last year, taking a long look at the gender make-up of a select few of the top magazines in the field.
Can't remember the title, but it was last year, should be in the archives.
was interesting.

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[info]doortoriver
2008-06-19 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I'll try to find it.

Also, I love your icon.

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[info]david_de_beer
2008-06-20 07:42 am UTC (link)
welcome. I think it was also written by Sue Linville (reading Cat's link to Jed Hartman, that name seemed to ring a bell).

icon: heh, yes, I'm rather fond of it. Is my happy icon. My other icons make me sad. And thanks:)

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[info]justinhowe
2008-06-19 10:47 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this post.

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[info]douglascohen
2008-06-19 11:35 pm UTC (link)
Hi, Cat. First, the link in your post doesn't seem to be cooperating. Anywho ...

I respect what you're posting about it as well as your opinions on the matter, but I'd like to offer another perspective. Sean is posting about this topic as well, so I'm stealing a lot of what on his blog under this topic and using it here.

Realms of Fantasy doesn't strip the names off manuscripts and I'll freely confess that when I'm slushing for the magazine I'm not thinking about gender biases.

I've looked at my own results, and after three years at the magazine I really can't find any gender biases in how I'm going about my business. I just pick the best stories (as I see them). I'll also add that even if I'm not crazy about a story, if I feel it deserves a look by Shawna, I'll pass it along. My job is to find stuff I consider publishable and I understand that some stuff will resonate more strongly with Shawna. So if I think Shawna might be more receptive to something and I believe it warrants a look by her, I'll pass this stuff along too. And honestly, so long as something meets our basic submission requirements, this is the only criteria I keep in mind when slushing.

I know Shawna has been pleased with the results to this point. And I can say with confidence that there has been no gender bias on my part concerning what I pass along. To date, I have 19 slush survivors that are published or forthcoming. 11 of them are women, 8 men. Now I grant that Shawna makes the final call as to what we publish, so this can skew my personal statistics and make it seem like I'm more fair than I really am. However, in a little over three years I have passed or will be passing along a total of 142 slush stories to Shawna. 59 of these come from men, 70 from women, and 2 unknown. I'd say that's more than fair. And in terms of the stories Shawna has accepted, they represent a wide range of sub-genres, some that may be considered "boy stories," and others "girl stories." And although it's not the focus of this discussion, I'll add that at least four of my slush survivors are international authors, and several of my slush tales have dealt with non-white characters in significant roles. So I'm plucking variety of all sorts, just based on what I like.

So based on these results, I'd say I'm doing just fine without monitoring myself. Maybe I'm a statistical oddity when it comes to editors, because I really don't care if you're a guy or a gal when I read your stuff. I'm just trying to find a good (make that great) yarn.

Keep up the good work.

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[info]catrambo
2008-06-20 12:42 am UTC (link)
That's awesome to hear, Doug. I'm curious, do you track the breakdown of m/f in the rejections as well? I'd be interested in hearing how the two ratios compare.

Are you arguing, though, that because you had this result, editors overall shouldn't be checking their gender ratio from time to time? Because I don't agree with that. Or that you, specifically, should never glance at the ratios to see how you're doing? Because I don't agree with that either.

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[info]douglascohen
2008-06-20 01:19 am UTC (link)
I've actually never tracked the ratio for rejections. If you're interested, I'd be happy to provide the results from a whole batch (just not tonight, as my brain is rather fried).

As to whether editors overall shouldn't be checking their stats from time to time, no, I wasn't arguing that. Assuming you have the means, I think it would behoove every editor to check this sort of thing at least once. The first time I read about these sorts of biases my initial reaction was "Well, I don't edit like that." But you never know on a subconscious level, which is why I checked. And since I keep careful records, I was able to confirm my beliefs.

But while I'm not arguing against checking these stats, beyond checking to see that you're not guilty of what we're discussing, I'm not arguing for heavy self-monitoring either. In a perfect world a 50/50 split is super, but really, I think 60/40 in either direction is pretty good for most editors. I have a large enough sampling of my editorial habits to believe that I won't deviate from the 60/40 split in either direction any time soon. I kind of like the idea that I can trust myself to keep doing as I'm doing. It's worked to this point.

Of course, a person's tastes can change over time (I know mine have, especially after attending the Odyssey workshop, and again after working three years at ROF), so it would be foolhardy to believe that as time goes by my tastes won't continue changing/evolving. I suppose it's possible those changes could impact the 60/40 split I'm referring to. So I'd say over time I'll certainly check on myself, just to make sure nothing unexpected has occurred, and also because I'd be interested/curious to see my personal numbers based on a larger sample of ratios.

I guess my initial point is that it is possible for some editors to be fair about gender biases when it comes to speculative fiction without monitoring their own numbers. I've basically done it for three years. This is only the second time I've checked my #'s, and both times I did so because there was a lot of discussion in the blogosphere, so curiosity compelled me to do so. If there ever comes a time where the numbers show that me just doing what I'm doing is leading to some serious favortism in one direction (or the other, I might add), I'd certainly take the time to step back and reassess my editorial process.

All this make sense? As I said, my brain is pretty fried right now.

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[info]catrambo
2008-06-20 01:35 am UTC (link)
I think we're in agreement on at least some things, but I'm not sure where the idea of "heavy self-monitoring" is coming from, and it raises my straw man flag when it's set up as though that's what you're objecting to. My post said: "It's not difficult to perform a spot check every once in a while" -- which is where we would seem to be in agreement.

It may well be possible for some editors to be fair about gender biases, as your experience is pointing to, but I think part of that involves performing this sort of check every once in a while. I would also suggest that working with a female editor may shape your actions -- which is why, in the past, I've suggested to other women concerned about this issue that one of the best ways to combat it is to become editors, reviewers, and publishers.

There's been a disturbing tendency in the field overall wherever a gender discrepancy comes up for people to be dismissive of it or point to it as a fluke -- or to excuse it in that "(so and so is/I am) a good person, how dare you suggest they/I might be subject to gender bias?!?" way which I find very problematic. Part of that is because those reactions seem at least partially aimed at stopping the conversation and/or discouraging the point from being raised in the future.

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[info]douglascohen
2008-06-20 02:38 am UTC (link)
First, the apology. Sorry if it seemed like I was building a straw man. By no means was that my intention. "Heavy self-monitoring" wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular. I guess I was just trying to get the point across that it's possible to achieve gender bias without monitoring yourself (although I'll point out that I didn't say I was "objecting" to this, just that I wasn't endorsing it--I do think there's a difference). How I went about getting that point across wasn't the best way. Again, sorry.

That said, I'm curious what you consider a spot check. Once a month? Every two months? For me, that actually could be considered heavy self-monitoring. For whatever reason, I got the impression this is around how often you check yourself, which may explain why I used the phrase in the way I did. As things stand now, I'm perfectly content to check my own stats in this regard once every 12-18 months (and change it accordingly if I catch any alarming tendencies). I hope that clears things up a bit.

I won't deny that working with Shawna has impacted my own tastes. But going back through my records, I see that I've been fairly consistent in what we're discussing even early on. The way Shawna has impacted my tastes the most is that she's expanded my definitions of what constitute fantasy. For that I thank her. But in those statistics Strange Horizons posted a while back dealing with the magazines' publication of men vs. women, iirc, Realms of Fantasy came fairly close to that 50/50 split. I think a big reason why is how Shawna goes about selecting stories. Early on in my career at ROF I once asked her for any advice she may have for when it comes to choosing stories from the slush. Her answer was pretty straightforward (and paraphrased, since it would be borderline impossible to dig up that conversation): "I just pick what I like."

That's what I was doing before I asked her, and having someone of her stature tell me that gave a fledgling editor the confidence to keep on doing as I was doing. If I were to point to anything, I think this is the single greatest reason Shawna and I work so well together. It's certainly not because of our tastes. We both like literary and commercial stuff, but she definitely likes the literary stuff more whereas it's the reverse for me. We do overlap in a number of areas, so I have my uses to her. :) Even so, if I were the editor at ROF instead of assistant editor, it would be a different magazine in terms of a chunk of its content. This isn't a judgment against Shawna (because Shawna rules!), just a result of the fact that our tastes deviate in certain respects. But I do believe that the male/female ratio of stories appearing in the magazine would be fairly similar to what you're seeing now.

I'm not trying to be dismissive about this issue, but when I read your post I just wanted to point out that some people are doing just fine without stripping the names, and doing very little in terms of monitoring themselves. If anything, I think it can be viewed as reassuring to writers that there are some editors who aren't necessarily championing this cause but who are still achieving an acceptable balance simply by picking the stories they like.

As you say, some people can be dismissive of this whole matter. I'm not doing that, nor do I attribute my initial reaction to one of "I'm a good person, etc." I just didn't think this was the case with me and I was and am right about that. And I think it's important to demonstrate that even though some editors may be guilty of what we're discussing, there are editors who may not be on the frontlines such as yourself or Sean but who are accomplishing the very thing you're interested in achieving simply by being interested in and picking what they like.

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[info]catrambo
2008-06-20 03:53 am UTC (link)
I appreciate your posts, and hearing your take on it. I don't think you're being dismissive. I appreciate your understanding that this is not directed specifically at you, but at all editors, male and female alike, and I'm enjoying this conversation, because this is something that I'm deeply interested in. You're right to say that there's a difference between disagreeing with something and not endorsing it.

But I think there's some points to be made:

1) One of the main reasons (if not the main reason) that women have moved beyond an existence where they were denied such things as the right to vote is a willingness of women (and men) to speak out about gender bias, and I see this conversation as a furthering of our movement along that path. The status quo has a lot of injustice built into it -- against the poor, against non-white races, against women, against people who value family or art over money, and so forth. That doesn't change without people being willing to self-examine and see where they are perpetuating the status quo.

2) This is what makes me uneasy about your assertion that there are some editors who don't need to check their biases every once in a while. Because that gets used as a justification for no one needing to check their biases. Everyone would like to think they're the special snowflake who managed to escape cultural conditioning, and I'm just not convinced that everyone that would put themselves in that category actually belongs there. I'd be genuinely surprised if I found myself not picking a fairly even ratio, but I don't think that gives me a pass from looking every once in a while to make sure my perceptions are accurate. As to how often is often enough, I suspect that differs from person to person. I don't do it on a monthly basis, since that would require a much higher degree of organization than I actually possess. ;)

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[info]douglascohen
2008-06-20 01:29 pm UTC (link)
No arguments on point 1. As to point 2, I understand where you're coming from. It's not my intention to use my example as a rallying cry for editors not to check themselves. But I kind of feel that all the parties in this matter should be represented. We have those such as yourself who are active about this issue, and those who may need to take a long hard look at their own processes. And mine is a third party that may fall into the minority. I'm the editor who's just picking what he likes without thinking about balances when he does so but happens to be achieving a pretty fair balance anyway. I'm "the special snowflake." ;) Will I monitor myself in the future? Sure, why not. But before this conversation, the last time was about a year ago. It'll probably be another year before it happens again. On a personal level, it's not something I'm stressing because as the old axiom goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I think it took me a little while to realize that I don't really fall into either of the primary camps in the way I handle the choosing of stories, and that this is fine so long as I keep within that 60/40 split in either direction. If that means I just need to check everything once a year, I'm cool with that. If I ever need to adjust my editorial behavior, I don't have a problem with that either. And if anyone wants to use my words as an example to shout down equality in speculative fiction, I'm more than happy to let them know this isn't my stance.

I'm just some guy who likes stories who would to keep choosing them for a magazine in the way I always have.

I walk a fine line I do. :)

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2008-06-20 08:58 pm UTC (link)
I think it's funny that you're responding to what is essentially a form letter from Doug.

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[info]douglascohen
2008-06-20 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Well, I did point out in my initial post that I was recycling some of what I posted on Sean's blog, so it's not like I'm hiding the fact. Two editors I respect were blogging about the subject and I read their posts within minutes of each other, and this seemed like the easiest way to make sure they both read my thoughts on the matter. I didn't see much point in finding an entirely new way to say the same thing.

Have I broken some sacred form of netiquette? :)

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2008-06-20 10:31 pm UTC (link)
It's just a little hard to take canned commentary seriously, especially when you have your own lj in which you could say this stuff once, with links to other conversations.

The form letter version reads a bit like a frantic wheatpasting of posters for Candidate B right next to those already put up for Candidate A.

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[info]douglascohen
2008-06-20 10:37 pm UTC (link)
I guess I see where you're coming from. That actually didn't occur to me. I'll just add that I wanted to engage these fine folks in conversation about the matter, and posting on their blogs seemed like the best way to achieve this.

And Cat graciously complied.

But yeah, maybe I'll hold off on the "form letters" in the future. Cheers.

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[info]catrambo
2008-06-21 04:27 am UTC (link)
My posters have glitter-paint.

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[info]willowfagan
2008-06-20 04:27 am UTC (link)
Thanks for this. It's an important topic, and I think the points you highlighted--the unconscious nature of most of this, how we're all affected by the culture around us, how everyone makes mistakes, and doing so doesn't make you a horrible monster but it does mean you ought to examine yourself and work towards change--are right on.

One pattern I've noticed in myself is that I often assume, unless I know otherwise, that the author has the same gender as the protagonist (and vice versa). I should really know better, given my own writing. I think that goes to show how unconscious many of our assumptions are.

I'd definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts on "girl" stories and "boy" stories sometime. I suspect many people would think of what I write as "girl" stories and, while I'm happy to queer and muck up gender binaries like that, it would also be nice to think and talk about a more nuanced understanding of the interplay between genders and types of stories, and what that was like in the past, and how it has changed, and could change.

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[info]tbclone47
2008-06-20 07:24 am UTC (link)
Cat, great topic. As you may know, there was a post on my blog with a bunch of traffic on this issue regarding my last issue of Talebones. It had a high percentage of males. It was brought to my attention by a subscriber. I'll admit it DID take me by surprise at the time! On the other hand, the next issue is almost half men, half women, and those stories were chosen quite a bit before that initial post on my blog.

I've since taken a look at my slush pile and noticed right off that the majority of the submissions in there are from men. Certainly my continued job is to keep pushing for more women readers, and therefore, hopefully, receiving more submissions from women writers.

I remember that Rich Horton's year-end review mentioned percentages of stories by women in nearly every magazine in the field. Realms of Fantasy scored VERY high percentages of women. I wonder if the RoF slush pile has a very high percentage of women writers in it? I would guess so. Cemetery Dance scored very high percentages of stories by men, btw, so I'd think that maybe the CD slush pile is predominantly men.

But periodically checking myself is a good idea -- not only a good idea, but a must. Out of curiosity, I just checked my HOLD pile (which isn't very big right now), and I have 4 submissions from men and 4 submissions from women (cough, cough...including one Cat Rambo!), and one submission from a writer I don't know who has initials instead of a first name. But I doubt that this split always holds true. I suspect more often than not, there are more men on the pile, and ONLY because there are more men in the slush.

Another thing I'll keep an eye on here over the next few years (yes, gotta hope I'm still plugging away that long!) is the fact that I've only had a couple issues come out where I was the sole decision-maker on the stories. Before, Honna and I worked jointly, and we had to agree on them in order to consider them for publication. I can look back at issues from two years back to ten years back and see a wide variety in the gender mix based on our mutual decisions. And yes, overall, more male writers during our joint editorialship. So far, it looks like I'm split relatively even. :)

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[info]greygirlbeast
2008-06-20 06:48 pm UTC (link)

We said. Thank you.

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[info]reddherring1955
2008-06-21 04:06 am UTC (link)
I tried to post a comment a little earlier, but the local Denny's bumped me off its wifi (evil Denny's). Sorry if this is a repeat.

I heard this question discussed with respect to a major print spec-fic mag a couple of years ago at ConText in Columbus, Ohio. I was encouraged to keep subbing to the venue, especially as it was noted that many women stopped subbing after N no. of rejections, while men persevered and kept sending in stories in the face of multiple rejections. Now, this itself might have been a gender generalization, but there was a valuable lesson learned for me anyhow - persistence MAY pay off.

Thanks, all the same, for exploring gender & other biases in editing/publication. It makes me feel all warm and cozy to see that you're conscious of this as a potential issue. Now, I wonder if my age is the next barrier, or, at least, a distinct lack of cool.

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[info]catrambo
2008-06-21 04:23 am UTC (link)
If I were age-discriminating, I suspect some would stick me in the group being discriminated against. ;)

And I think you're cool! You do cool legal stuff! How many other women do I know who have worked to keep sex-toys legals?

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[info]reddherring1955
2008-06-21 02:00 pm UTC (link)
Aw shucks. Or tried to keep "sexual devices" (as we call them in Bama) legal, anyhow. One more brief to go!

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[info]dawtheminstrel
2008-06-21 12:25 pm UTC (link)
I used to edit an academic journal. Maybe 20 years back, most journals changed to anonymous review. That is, the author was supposed to give no indication of his or her name in the article. Studies showed that that percentage of articles by women and junior faculty increased. People don't mean to be biased usually, but they are.

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Thanks!
[info]entertheoctopus.wordpress.com
2008-06-22 10:48 pm UTC (link)
I corrected the error in the Bookosphere post - sorry about that, and I appreciate you letting me know about the problem!

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that's interesting, 'cause I just posted the same rec
[info]bellatrys
2008-07-05 11:12 pm UTC (link)
to scrape the names off MS for review, that is, on another discussion of this mess.

I actually was part of an organization that did this - granted, we were a dinky all-volunteer student magazine, and nothing to write home about, and the problem was a very different one, not gender-related (80-90% of the editorial staff, and 80-90% of the contributers, were female) but there had been a major scandal the year or so before I joined, in which editors had been caught accepting stories written by their friends, and rejecting ones written by their enemies, so the legitimacy of the process, which was supposed to be impartial and based on iirc 4 factors of rating, (plot, style, grammar/spelling I think) had been totally compromised due to the corruption.

Again, talk of "corruption" on an all-volunteer high school literary magazine may sound like a laugh, but it was a big deal as far as ethics and integrity of the group went, and the faculty advisor's solution had been to strip off the names of the writers and give us who were reading for review only numbered typescripts, and only she had the key-code for the numbers.

It might have been a moot point - we sometimes had so few submissions that we were scrambling to *write* things to make up a full signature, and other times we had lots but it was all so bad that we would go through the reject pile at the end and sort by least-worst ratings to make up a full issue (believe you me, there was stuff that would have given the Eye of Argon runs for its money) but at least the possibility of personal resentments and preferences getting acted upon was no more.

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Sorry
[info]johnottinger
2009-10-12 05:07 pm UTC (link)
Cat,

Thanks for posting this to my vitriolic rant. I wanted to apologize to you personally and admit I was wrong. After reading your commentary, I realize just how small-minded and illogical I was being.

I am sorry. I ask your forgiveness.

John

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