Cat Rambo ([info]catrambo) wrote,
@ 2007-04-22 13:05:00
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Current mood: disappointed

*sigh*
While I'm glad to see F&SF mag finally trying Web-only publishing, can't say as much for their choice of content, unfortunately. I hope someone does support them for trying it, but that column's not something that makes me feel very warm and fuzzy about subscribing, or submitting, for that matter. Pretty much the opposite. If I'm pointedly not welcome at your country club, I'm not sure I feel the need to help with the greens fees.


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[info]lisamantchev
2007-04-22 08:28 pm UTC (link)
Ditto.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ccfinlay
2007-04-22 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Have either of you posted this comment over on the F&SF bulletin boards? I think it's something that Gordon ought to hear, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't have time to google for mentions of F&SF in lj and elsewhere, so he might miss it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]lisamantchev
2007-04-22 08:34 pm UTC (link)
I haven't Charlie, because it's reached the stage where there's only so many times I need to hear "You're not the reader we're looking for" and me to think "My fiction is not your fiction."

It's not a crusade for me. I don't need to sell to them, and I don't need to buy the magazine.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]ccfinlay
2007-04-22 08:40 pm UTC (link)
*nods*

Would either you or [info]catrambo mind if I linked to this discussion then?

I'm not sure that I will... because I'm not sure what point I'd be trying to make yet. But I know that I fell in love and subscribed to F&SF because of some women writers, M. Rickert and Yoon Ha Lee especially, who were blowing me away with their stories, but also Carol Emshwiller's stuff, and Esther Friesner, who almost always makes me laugh; and so, as someone who's a subscriber, as well as someone who's been published in the magazine a lot, I'm bothered by the perception that readers or writers aren't welcome there mostly, if not solely, on the basis of their gender. And I strongly feel that Dave Truesdale's sexist rants add to that feeling.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]bondgwendabond, 2007-04-22 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev, 2007-04-22 08:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]catrambo, 2007-04-22 08:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]catrambo, 2007-04-22 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev, 2007-04-22 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ccfinlay, 2007-04-23 04:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_de_beer, 2007-04-22 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rachel_swirsky, 2007-04-22 09:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rachel_swirsky, 2007-04-22 09:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_de_beer, 2007-04-22 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_de_beer, 2007-04-22 10:06 pm UTC

[info]ellen_datlow
2007-04-23 12:51 am UTC (link)
But where did you get this idea that "you're not the reader that F&SF is looking for? I'm honestly perplexed. F&SF has been publishing marvelous fiction by women as well as men. Gordon is the one who, after all, "discovered M. Rickert" and published most of her fiction.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_datlow, 2007-04-23 12:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev, 2007-04-23 01:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lisamantchev, 2007-04-23 01:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ellen_datlow, 2007-04-23 01:27 am UTC

[info]rachel_swirsky
2007-04-22 09:46 pm UTC (link)
No, but I'll be sending Gordon a note when I unsubscribe.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]cristalia
2007-04-22 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Why do people keep giving that man soapboxes? Hasn't he fallen down a hole yet?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]rachel_swirsky
2007-04-22 09:47 pm UTC (link)
Honestly? The only thing I can think of is that people agree with that man.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]cristalia
2007-04-22 09:52 pm UTC (link)
If that is true, I may have to retreat into my cave and then emerge to save Britain in a thousand years, when there is less ignorant spew on the internet.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]maryrobinette
2007-04-22 08:41 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Even skimming down to the point where it says it's a satire, I was pretty put-off by the article. Although, I swung around from thinking it was misogynist to thinking it was just in poor taste.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]squirrel_monkey
2007-04-22 09:02 pm UTC (link)
I believe it was misogynist *and* in poor taste. Despite many reassurances to the contrary, DT has consistently failed to jump at any examples of actual sexism and confined his 'satire' to imaginary offenses against white men.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]ccfinlay
2007-04-22 09:48 pm UTC (link)
That's exactly my problem with his arguments in a nutshell.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]ellen_datlow
2007-04-23 12:57 am UTC (link)
Mary, knowing Dave, I'd say it was both ;-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]charlieallery
2007-04-22 09:59 pm UTC (link)
"Well, some other time. But boy howdy, Yahoo for "women's lib"! :-)"

This comment presumably proves his enlightened viewpoint towards lesbians. I really can't put my utter distaste into words.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]azimuth07
2007-04-23 05:02 am UTC (link)
I did a double-take at that comment. I mean, is he really claiming to be all enlightened because he is hot for lesbian sex? Isn't that a mainstay of heterosexual porn?

I'm so impressed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]supaluv
2007-04-23 12:20 am UTC (link)
It seemed like a transparent attempt at controversy. Don Imus's ratings have never been better.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]supaluv
2007-04-23 07:28 pm UTC (link)
I just read the article that the Truesdale article is referring to, and I *get* now what he's trying to do.

I do think that the Martini rant was fairly sexist, though he went further than Martini. I guess that's fine for parody and fun, and exaggeration does illustrate well; I just can't help but feel like it would have been more effective if he had closely mirrored her level of sexism. Instead, it looks a bit like he's using her sexism as an excuse to vent, which just detracts from the point he's trying to make (regardless of whether or not it's the best point to make).

It's probably dangerous for Gordon to publish something like that with all the scrutiny he's gotten with regard to whether or not he's a sexist editor, but in his defense, he _is_ an editor, not a polititian.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]rachel_swirsky
2007-04-23 08:54 pm UTC (link)
And I'm a subscriber -- not a constituent. I can still pull my support.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]supaluv, 2007-04-23 09:15 pm UTC

[info]specficrider
2007-04-23 12:03 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Pretty wild "parody." The original was in bad taste, but Truesdale tops all. Not too surprising, though -- just that it's an official column on the F&SF site.

As you said, Cat - sigh.

(Reply to this)


[info]lmarley
2007-04-23 01:55 pm UTC (link)
I know I spend most of my life out of the loop, but what is all this about? And could one of you give the link so I can read this rant? (I'm so far out of it I didn't know F & SF was going to do web-only publishing.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ellen_datlow
2007-04-23 03:05 pm UTC (link)
Louise,
F&SF is not going to web-only publishing. What it has done is put Dave Truesdale's columns on its website as original content.
To give you things in the right order.
Here is Adrienne Martini's rant:
http://www.bookslut.com/specfic_floozy/2007_04_010912.php

Here is Dave Truesdale's rant:
http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/2007/dt0706.htm

Here is the discussion of both on the Nightshade BB:
http://tinyurl.com/396npa

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]catrambo
2007-04-23 03:34 pm UTC (link)

And that, to me, is the core of it. I know there are a bajillion whackjobs in the world. I deal with many of them daily.

But this piece appears as a piece of web-only content from F&SF, with a note underneath stressing that it's their first venture into web-only content and only if at least one person clicks the buy a subscription link will they ever publish anything solely on the web again.

Because while I'd like to support that move, I won't support this kind of hateful crap. It makes me question whether I want to submit to F&SF if that is something they feel is so representative of their magazine that it provides readers with a good test of whether or not they'd like to read. It's that conjunction that surprises and appalls me, much more than the column, because it seems either deliberate or incredibly obtuse.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_datlow, 2007-04-23 03:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]catrambo, 2007-04-23 04:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ellen_datlow, 2007-04-23 04:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]catrambo, 2007-04-23 04:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ellen_datlow, 2007-04-23 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]catrambo, 2007-04-23 04:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]catrambo, 2007-04-23 04:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ellen_datlow, 2007-04-23 04:37 pm UTC

[info]lmarley
2007-04-23 07:14 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Thanks, Ellen. I was exhausted halfway through, so I didn't finish all of that. I guess it's a good thing I stay busy writing instead of lurking (is that the word?) on message boards. It would be nice if folks could believe that other folks work hard to judge competitions fairly (I have been one of those other folks, and I know how difficult it is to choose one worthy book over a slew of other worthy books). I know when I was judging, gender was never--never, ever, ever--an issue. Writing was the issue, and it was complex enough without worrying about what kind of undies the writers wore.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_datlow, 2007-04-23 07:20 pm UTC

[info]krisname
2007-04-23 02:47 pm UTC (link)
Oh my dog. Stick a fork in me, 'cause I'm done with that mess.
How utterly depressing.

Then again, now I have money to subscribe to Weird Tales again...

(Reply to this)


[info]diekreuzen
2007-04-23 05:29 pm UTC (link)
I thought it was a ham-handed parody and not funny. Not an "unsubscribing" offense for me, though. At least no trees died for this.

(Reply to this)

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